“I have not yet stood up to challenge him but nor have I ruled that out because we haven’t seen the (Andy Burnham economic) plan yet,” Labour MP Al Carns told BirminghamLive. “We expect to see that Monday or Tuesday. Then we will see.”
Carns, who represents Birmingham Selly Oak, gave the interview in the Cherry Reds pub in the city centre, sunglasses on his head and a pint of Attic Brewery lager in hand. He is, BirminghamLive reported, the only Labour MP still talking about challenging Burnham to succeed Keir Starmer as party leader.
How he got here
Carns quit Starmer’s government as Armed Forces Minister earlier this month over concerns about the defence budget. Starmer resigned days later. Andy Burnham, newly an MP after winning the Makerfield by-election, is now the favourite to become Labour leader and Prime Minister.
Other leading figures, including Wes Streeting and Darren Jones, have decided not to run against him. Carns argues for a debate first. “Someone has to do it,” he says, and he believes plenty of Labour MPs quietly agree.
To take part in a contest he would need the nominations of 81 Labour MPs, plus endorsements from affiliates such as trade unions.
What he wants to see
Carns says he will only formally challenge if the vision Burnham sets out is not “bold and courageous”. Burnham and his team are understood to be planning to present their economic plan to MPs early next week.
He told BBC Politics Midlands what would count. “We need to see a vision, we need to see the plan because unfortunately a vision without a plan is a dream,” he said. He wants to know where the country should be by 2029 and by 2034-35: “the healthiest nation in Europe”, perhaps, or a trillion pounds added to GDP. The plan, he said, does not need every detail, “but it needs to be there”.
“I’m not going to start jumping up and down until I’ve had a look,” he said.
Defence is one of the “key factors” he will watch for. He rejects the idea of paying for it from welfare. “A pound off a nurse to give it to a soldier? And I just don’t agree with that premise,” he said. The government is expected to publish its Defence Investment Plan ahead of a Nato summit on 7 July.
Ego or conviction
Some have dismissed his challenge as performative, a bid to be “in the conversation”. Carns rejects that. “I did not resign to seek a reward or position. I am really enjoying being on the back benches,” he said.
He says fellow MPs share his worry. In his account, they tell him Makerfield was a huge success and that they like Burnham’s charisma and drive, but ask whether anyone knows what the party stands for. “I am just standing up and saying it overtly and maybe a bit louder,” he said.
He was warm about Starmer, calling him “very honest, very decent”. But he warned that without a bolder approach, “we may end up with an extreme party coming in which may wash the entire system clean. That would be a travesty.”
BirminghamLive noted that Carns is described as right of centre within the party, and that his “five tests” on growth, investment, defence, youth employment and welfare have been called a Conservative rather than Labour vision. He puts the welfare bill at £233 billion a year and says it must be addressed.
The Conservatives’ Neil Shastri-Hurst told the BBC programme his party would reintroduce the two-child benefit cap and cut welfare to pay for defence. Reform UK’s Dawn Husemann said “tens of millions” could come from net zero and the welfare system.
Carns, a former Royal Marine, ended the interview with a smile. “My legs aren’t being blown off, I’m not being shot at, this is all right,” he said.
Sources
- Birmingham MP Al Carns not ruling out Labour leadership yet
- Birmingham MP Al Carns tells all over 'serious' challenge to Andy Burnham
- Birmingham MP Al Carns not ruling out Labour leadership yet
